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	<title>Comments on: P.Z. Myers Just Doesn&#8217;t Get It</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?feed=rss2&#038;p=1998" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998</link>
	<description>A few thoughts from John Fleck, a writer of journalism and other things, living in New Mexico</description>
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		<title>By: Framing Nisbet: Is He Offering Us McScience? at Greg Laden</title>
		<link>http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998&#038;cpage=1#comment-128138</link>
		<dc:creator>Framing Nisbet: Is He Offering Us McScience? at Greg Laden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:02:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998#comment-128138</guid>
		<description>[...] here here here here here here here here here here  here [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] here here here here here here here here here here  here [...]</p>
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		<title>By: PZ Myers</title>
		<link>http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998&#038;cpage=1#comment-113631</link>
		<dc:creator>PZ Myers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998#comment-113631</guid>
		<description>I freely admit that I just don&#039;t get it. It&#039;s not that I&#039;m opposed to new strategies, or that I&#039;m committed to some weird &quot;loading dock&quot; model (I&#039;m not) -- it&#039;s that the paper and the discussion afterwards gave me no information at all on how to implement these changes.  Seriously, I read the paper with some anticipation of a useful new tool for better communication that I could use &lt;i&gt;tomorrow&lt;/i&gt;, and at the end...what? Respect religion and don&#039;t give out technical information? Those were the only specific recommendations I could find in there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I freely admit that I just don&#8217;t get it. It&#8217;s not that I&#8217;m opposed to new strategies, or that I&#8217;m committed to some weird &#8220;loading dock&#8221; model (I&#8217;m not) &#8212; it&#8217;s that the paper and the discussion afterwards gave me no information at all on how to implement these changes.  Seriously, I read the paper with some anticipation of a useful new tool for better communication that I could use <i>tomorrow</i>, and at the end&#8230;what? Respect religion and don&#8217;t give out technical information? Those were the only specific recommendations I could find in there.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Collins</title>
		<link>http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998&#038;cpage=1#comment-111820</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2007 03:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998#comment-111820</guid>
		<description>I admit I don&#039;t see why there&#039;s such excitement about framing science. Is it fresh and needed? Could it be its fancy label? Could it be because it shifts the blame? Dunno. Nor do I really care.

Sure, &#039;framing&#039; is important, but it just seems to be a new label to an age old mantra that any decent communicator knows: discuss [insert topic here] in a way that resonates with the audience. And since this really is a discussion at different levels - over minutes with a few people or over years nationwide - a loading dock of course doesn&#039;t fly.

Yeah, sure, many people don&#039;t do it right, but framing is neither new nor rocket science. We just have to realise we&#039;re talking with (with, not to) people who are not us. Then we have to work out how to make our topic resonate. Neither are trivial, I admit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I admit I don&#8217;t see why there&#8217;s such excitement about framing science. Is it fresh and needed? Could it be its fancy label? Could it be because it shifts the blame? Dunno. Nor do I really care.</p>
<p>Sure, &#8216;framing&#8217; is important, but it just seems to be a new label to an age old mantra that any decent communicator knows: discuss [insert topic here] in a way that resonates with the audience. And since this really is a discussion at different levels &#8211; over minutes with a few people or over years nationwide &#8211; a loading dock of course doesn&#8217;t fly.</p>
<p>Yeah, sure, many people don&#8217;t do it right, but framing is neither new nor rocket science. We just have to realise we&#8217;re talking with (with, not to) people who are not us. Then we have to work out how to make our topic resonate. Neither are trivial, I admit.</p>
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		<title>By: Dano</title>
		<link>http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998&#038;cpage=1#comment-111700</link>
		<dc:creator>Dano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2007 01:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998#comment-111700</guid>
		<description>Roger thinks that the tan socks with brown suits is a subtle hint that the speaker will be politicizing the next phrase, thus should be ignored, and suspenders are ohsoyesterday and why does anyone listen to this obvious politicizer anyway?!?

Best,

D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roger thinks that the tan socks with brown suits is a subtle hint that the speaker will be politicizing the next phrase, thus should be ignored, and suspenders are ohsoyesterday and why does anyone listen to this obvious politicizer anyway?!?</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>D</p>
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		<title>By: jfleck</title>
		<link>http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998&#038;cpage=1#comment-111586</link>
		<dc:creator>jfleck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 20:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998#comment-111586</guid>
		<description>Hank -

Thanks for the comment. Roger does not advocate the &quot;loading dock&quot; approach. In fact, he&#039;s been somewhat critical of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hank -</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment. Roger does not advocate the &#8220;loading dock&#8221; approach. In fact, he&#8217;s been somewhat critical of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Hank Roberts</title>
		<link>http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998&#038;cpage=1#comment-111553</link>
		<dc:creator>Hank Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 19:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998#comment-111553</guid>
		<description>Wait.

I thought the &quot;loading dock&quot; approach -- just the facts, anything else would be politics -- would describe what scientists should do according to RPJr.

You say it describes what&#039;s recommended by PZ.  

Are they both selling the same facts off the same dock?  
How do they differ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait.</p>
<p>I thought the &#8220;loading dock&#8221; approach &#8212; just the facts, anything else would be politics &#8212; would describe what scientists should do according to RPJr.</p>
<p>You say it describes what&#8217;s recommended by PZ.  </p>
<p>Are they both selling the same facts off the same dock?<br />
How do they differ?</p>
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		<title>By: Dano</title>
		<link>http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998&#038;cpage=1#comment-111551</link>
		<dc:creator>Dano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 19:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998#comment-111551</guid>
		<description>If I may,

I applaud the conversation as well. And natural resource managers who use scenario analysis and adaptive management to manage their resources already know about local knowledge and adopt it into their management schemes. And have for years. They just can&#039;t talk about it much to the atomists and empiricists. It&#039;s changing, tho...

Best,

D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I may,</p>
<p>I applaud the conversation as well. And natural resource managers who use scenario analysis and adaptive management to manage their resources already know about local knowledge and adopt it into their management schemes. And have for years. They just can&#8217;t talk about it much to the atomists and empiricists. It&#8217;s changing, tho&#8230;</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>D</p>
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		<title>By: Bloggingit.info &#187; A Tale of Three Interviews</title>
		<link>http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998&#038;cpage=1#comment-111433</link>
		<dc:creator>Bloggingit.info &#187; A Tale of Three Interviews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 15:36:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998#comment-111433</guid>
		<description>[...] The Science piece, by Scibloggers Chris Mooney and Matt Nisbet, make the point that the way science is expressed in public makes a difference to how it is received. So much, so uncontroversial. However, it generated some trenchant counter-arguments, (and counter-counter-arguments), possibly because they start off criticising a bit of a strawman &#8217;scientist&#8217; who thinks that &#8216;if only laypeople better understood technical complexities&#8230; controversies would subside&#8217;. It&#8217;s certainly possible that such people exist, however, they are unlikely to be found among the scientists who are active in trying to communicate to the public. However, instead of arguing about this in a rather abstract way, I thought I&#8217;d illustrate the issue by discussing three interviews I did last Thursday and Friday in relation to the IPCC WG II release. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Science piece, by Scibloggers Chris Mooney and Matt Nisbet, make the point that the way science is expressed in public makes a difference to how it is received. So much, so uncontroversial. However, it generated some trenchant counter-arguments, (and counter-counter-arguments), possibly because they start off criticising a bit of a strawman &#8217;scientist&#8217; who thinks that &#8216;if only laypeople better understood technical complexities&#8230; controversies would subside&#8217;. It&#8217;s certainly possible that such people exist, however, they are unlikely to be found among the scientists who are active in trying to communicate to the public. However, instead of arguing about this in a rather abstract way, I thought I&#8217;d illustrate the issue by discussing three interviews I did last Thursday and Friday in relation to the IPCC WG II release. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jfleck</title>
		<link>http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998&#038;cpage=1#comment-111428</link>
		<dc:creator>jfleck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 15:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998#comment-111428</guid>
		<description>Greg -

Thanks for the comment. I absolutely agree with your point that many scientists ignore the job of communicating with the public. And I applaud people like PZ (and many like him who I interact with on a daily basis). But for those who do take the responsibility of communication, Nisbet and Mooney are drawing attention to a useful body of research that sheds a lot of light on how that communication can be done more effectively to different audiences.

On your point about the Rwandan villagers, bravo! That&#039;s a point the &quot;loading dock&quot; paper I linked to above reinforces.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg -</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment. I absolutely agree with your point that many scientists ignore the job of communicating with the public. And I applaud people like PZ (and many like him who I interact with on a daily basis). But for those who do take the responsibility of communication, Nisbet and Mooney are drawing attention to a useful body of research that sheds a lot of light on how that communication can be done more effectively to different audiences.</p>
<p>On your point about the Rwandan villagers, bravo! That&#8217;s a point the &#8220;loading dock&#8221; paper I linked to above reinforces.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Laden</title>
		<link>http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998&#038;cpage=1#comment-111115</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Laden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 11:49:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=1998#comment-111115</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m very glad to see that this conversation is happening, and I hope it continues.

I feel that a large proportion of scientists have ignored the job of communicating with the public.  PZ and a few others have to be given a lot of credit for not only making the effort but for not toning or watering down the conversation to the point that it is useless.

I advocate (and will be writing more on this shortly) the development of a more pervasive component of &quot;science engagement&quot; within our own North American culture.  I think this feature may be found more pervasive in other areas.  For example, the average Rwandan villager living near the Virunga Volcanos probably has a very sophisticated and personalized understanding of primate (especially gorilla) conservation and primatology, owing to decades of engagement in that area.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m very glad to see that this conversation is happening, and I hope it continues.</p>
<p>I feel that a large proportion of scientists have ignored the job of communicating with the public.  PZ and a few others have to be given a lot of credit for not only making the effort but for not toning or watering down the conversation to the point that it is useless.</p>
<p>I advocate (and will be writing more on this shortly) the development of a more pervasive component of &#8220;science engagement&#8221; within our own North American culture.  I think this feature may be found more pervasive in other areas.  For example, the average Rwandan villager living near the Virunga Volcanos probably has a very sophisticated and personalized understanding of primate (especially gorilla) conservation and primatology, owing to decades of engagement in that area.</p>
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